Confusing anti-abortionists with one question
I have always been pro-choice. As a Christian, I can’t see it any other way. It’s about free will, and it’s about tolerance. Those two notions are clearly set out in the Bible, and if you’re a Christian who tries to love your fellow human beings, as the Bible says you should do, then you should also be pro-choice.
This is why I love this video I found on YouTube. A young man went to a group of pro-lifers who were demonstrating on the streets and asked each of them this question:
“If abortion were illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions?”
It’s a simple question, but one which gets back to the principles of compassion and tolerance so entrenched in the Bible. Watch them struggle to come to grips with what sort of punishment these women should receive, and you’ll see they can’t answer.
I’m glad someone had the courage to go out there and ask this question, because people who try to impose their religious beliefs on others are not doing God’s will. The pain that women suffer through after aborting is greater than any sort of pointless legal action that could be taken against them. They have pangs of remorse and go through bouts of depression for years or even decades. It’s not something I’d wish on anybody, but I strongly believe that they should have the option to do this if they feel it is necessary.
[via Unreasonable Faith]
Why didn’t we see him go ask Jo?
I agree, these people should know what they are doing and why they do it.
Raoul, God does not condone Abortion, what bible are you reading? Cherry picking the parts you need/want to back up your argument will not change God’s commands.
Do not murder – by God, abortion is murder.
If science/society says that it’s not, because the baby is not yet formed, that’s up to them. But if God (which He’s quite clear about) decrees that He forms all life, then I guess when it comes to His judgement, there’ll be no excuse.
If the world/pro-lifers want to campaign for the Law to state it illegal to abort, then they best be prepared to punish those that do it when it becomes illegal – but do not compare that to Gods perspective of Law and Punishment.
So saying “Thou shall not kill” is now not tolerant?
Real tolerance brings respect not agreement.
Let’s apply your statements on tolerance to current laws. I want to be a serial killer, because I want to kill people. But the U.S. law won’t allow me to! :) That’s intolerance! I think you might be getting a little confused by Post-Modern jargon.
http://www.audioverse.org/displayrecording/1385/JeffreyRosario-EngagingTheCulturePartI/
Hardly so, Will. I’m simply applying the notions of free will and tolerance to the situation. God never forces anyone to worship Him. He gives us all complete freedom to choose. By the same token, I believe a woman ought to have the freedom of choice when it comes to being pregnant or not. It’s her right, since the embryo is entirely dependent on her during the pregnancy. I don’t think abortion ought to be practiced wholesale, but I think a woman ought to have the right to make her own decision. Seems to me you, alongside many other Christians, are the ones who are confused. Why force someone to have a baby? Are we in a totalitarian society, or a free society?
It’s not the question of “forcing” a woman to have a baby. It’s about the fact that the unborn child is being murdered. Sound ridiculous? It’s not. The child is a human being in his\her earliest stages of development. Is the child dependent on her during pregnancy? Yes. But would it be right to kill a child that is outside the womb yet still dependent on his\her mother solely because the mother doesn’t want the responsibility? Is this her “right”, to choose to cease caring? She has a responsibility to at least see her child brought into the world because intrinsically the child has the same rights to life that the rest of us have. If our parents had just decided to “choose” that we were not worth bringing into the world, we wouldn’t be here discussing this. If we know what is right then it is our moral obligation to do what is right; giving the unborn no “choice” is being hypocritical considering the mother decides to “choose” to end the pregnancy; so is saying we believe the Bible to be 100% accurate and the Ten Commandments true and right and at the same time denying the inherent rights of the unborn. It seems as though in your previous posting (March 19th) that you make the point that because the child is dependent on the mother, that the mother then has the right to kill her child. Sounds like taking God’s place (deciding whether the child lives or not) on the merit of the child being dependent on his\her mother. But you forget this: no matter how old, the unborn child is not merely a part of it’s mother’s body. It is a separate and distinct human being that given the chance will grow up to be a separate and distinct person.
And consider this: what if they knew that the child inside them was just that, a child? What if they knew the emotional, spiritual and sometimes even physical consequences of terminating a pregnancy? I think they would for the most part choose life.
If you think they should have a choice, then give them the informed choice, not the politically correct mumbo-jumbo that they see every day.
And as for living in a totalitarian state? This is America. At least for now.
Shane, I’m not debating the morality of abortion. I think we’re on the same page there. I’m questioning the legality of forcing people to conform to the point of view of some Christians or some demented do-gooders who think their point of view is best. To me, that’s not right. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, including their own beliefs on abortion. Let each make their choice.
What also gets my goat is how vocal these anti-abortionists are, including you. Who do you think you are, really? You think you’re that special and righteous? You think you have a monopoly on what people need to do with their lives? Well, you don’t. You in particular seem to be still young, probably in your early 20s, judging by the way you write and your email address. Wait till you get older and wiser, and try to get closer to God, then you’ll see that sometimes it’s best to keep your mouth shut instead of speaking up passionately about things you haven’t experienced yourself.
Raoul-
You said “Shane, I’m not debating the morality of abortion. I think we’re on the same page there. I’m questioning the legality of forcing people to conform to the point of view of some Christians or some demented do-gooders who think their point of view is best.”
First, in response, I would like to say this, that I agree that people can make a choice. Free will is the ability to choose. This is probably overstating the obvious. But second, what if morality comes into play, such as in this case does, in the area of choice? And please, hear me on this, I understand your point of questioning the legality of forcing the opinions of a person or organization or religious group on the individual. But, what if the morality of the issue comes into play? I understand that even that statement seems to want to take away the ability to choose, and if God always “made” us choose the right way, then Christians would not really be His followers, rather mindless automatons doing the bidding and wishes of God. But isn’t making the morally sound “choice” part of what being a Christian is about, not being mindless automatons, but living in a way that exemplifies His character? And aside from this, I do not believe that the morality of the issue versus the principle of the issue should be separated. When God gave us His laws and precepts in both the Old and New Testament, they were not merely ideas suggesting the morality of certain issues, they were principles that were designed by God Himself that were instituted as practical and at the same time theological commandments for daily living. And if one studies the Old Testament, it may seem as though God was “forcing” the Israelites to obey and do exactly what He told them through the law. However, in the face of the legal, moral, and spiritual implications they still chose the wrong way, time after time. So even if in principle the “freedom of choice” is taken away, there is still the ability to make the wrong choice. See, that’s where I believe free will comes in. God gives us the instructions on how to live our lives, and at the same time gives us an understanding of the consequences of sin (informed choice), but it is still up to the individual to choose right or wrong. But what’s the point? Any law can be made, any implication as to consequences regarding the disobedience written, but the ability to choose between actually obeying that law or not still exists. So, in my perspective, it really isn’t about restricting choice, but about the morality of that choice.
And as for me? I am nothing. The only thing that makes me different is my faith in Jesus Christ. Still a sinner sanctified by His blood. If anything, it makes me realize the insignificance of myself compared to God Almighty.
And I would like to say one more thing. You speak of tolerance, yet from the previous posting, I feel no love or compassion coming from your words. You speak as if you yourself have the ability to judge whether I am “special” or “righteous”. What gave you the indication that I was making myself better than somebody with a different opinion? Do I believe that what I believe is right? Yes, as much you believe that your belief is right. That’s what individualism is about. But God didn’t say what He said, or do what He did, or give us what we have in the Scriptures because He wanted to make us mindless robots. He did it because He loves us. I am just trying to point the way to that. It’s His ideas I am trying to reflect, imperfect a mirror as I am. Now I will also say this: if I came across as harsh and knowing everything, I am truly sorry. It seems as though there are many who would only point the finger at others and twist God’s Word to exalt themselves. Believe me, I have seen this myself and am disgusted by it. It is a major turnoff of many people because that’s what they see or remember as Christianity. Furthermore, I don’t need to experience something to know what it is and decide whether it is right or wrong. And again, it’s not about what I believe what’s right or wrong, it’s what God says that I base my beliefs on, and He has the final say. Thank you for your consideration and your time.
There is a simple answer to this. The women should be charged with murder and be punished the same if they murdered their 1 year old child.
Bob Mutch, your blog’s name is “More Christ Like”, and your motto is “Changed into the same image”, yet you would gladly murder and punish the women who would have abortions. That’s probably what Christ would have done, right? You’re just as much of a hypocrite as the pharisees who wanted to murder the woman who had supposedly been caught in the act of adultery (with one of them). But don’t worry, you’re not alone. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of “Christians” just like you, waiting for the moment when they re-start the old witch hunts. You just need a good reason, and abortion is one of the many that’ll do.
HI Raoul,
I think you have jumped the gun Raoul.
I have not advocated murdering anyone, perhaps you took for granted that I agreed with the US legal system when it comes their position for an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth. In that case I stand with Jesus.
Keep in mind I am the one that is anti-abortion. That means I am against killing unborn children. According to the following quote it is you that is pro-abortion, pro-choice as you call it, which according to my understanding you are pro-murder and promoting the killing of unborn children.
“It’s her right, since the embryo is entirely dependent on her during the pregnancy. I don’t think abortion ought to be practiced wholesale, but I think a woman ought to have the right to make her own decision.”
The fact that the law allows termination of an embryo doesn’t change how God views it. Fornication and homosexuality is permitted in by Canadian law and is promoted by most of the general public yet both these sins are an abomination to God.
While I don’t advocate a law against these sins I do advocate laws where a person does physical harm against another person. In the case of termination of an child in or out of the womb I advocate the charge of murder.
Also keep in mind here in our country (Canada) we don’t have the death penalty. I personally am against the death penalty and consider it wrong and sinful to take the life of someone even if they have taken the live of someone else.
Also I am against witch hunts. Those that killed women because they thought they were witches were false Christians. Those that advocate the murder of another human when Jesus said it is no longer and eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth are not followers of Christ.
Also I don’t think you will find many anti-abortions that hold the doctors or mothers should be put to death for killing unborn children. It seems on your video you didn’t find any.
I would suggest in your conversations with others that disagree with you that you follow the teaching of 1Cor 13 where we are to “think no evil” and “believeth all things, hopeth all things”.
If you follow God’s Word in this area you will ask a person where they stand not accuse of person of where you think they stand in a discussion.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.